FEPTO XXIV. GENERAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 21st of May 2019
Facilitator: Dana Dragoteanu
- Opening the General Assembly
Nikolaos Takis and Krzysztof Ciepliński (President and Vice-President)
- Appointment of the secretary
Secretary: Ana Cruz
- Appointment of two members to check the minutes
Stefan Flegelskamp & Jacomien Ilbrink volunteer to check the minutes.
- Establishment of the Quorum
83 votes, don’t make the 2/3 needed according the statutes.
- Appointment of the vote counters
Zoltan Figusch and Agnes Dudler volunteer to count the votes.
- Approval of the agenda of the General Assembly
The agenda was approved.
- Approval of the Pravetz General Assembly Minutes
Pravetz minutes were approved.
- Reports of the Executive Council
a. President report: Nikolaos Takis
As the end of our term as a FEPTO council is approaching, I have worked towards the completion of the issues that have been addressed the last two years and the preparation of the 27th Annual Meeting and 14th Conference in Tallinn, Estonia.
We have collaborated with the other members of the Executive Council for the finalization of the agenda and the preparation of the General Assembly of 2019. Along with the Vice President Krzysztof Ciepliński we prepared the agenda of the last Council meeting, that took place right before the FEPTO Annual Meeting. We have continued our collaboration with Fred Dorn, Frank Sielecki and Judith Teszáry for the preparation of the AM small group on the Constitution changing process.
I have been honored by the Greek Vice President of IAGP Katherina Mela to be vice chair of the organizing committee of the 2nd IAGP Research Congress that will take place in Thessaloniki, between the 14th and 17th of June 2019. We have attained a significant discount in the registration feed of all FEPTO members who are interested in presenting their work in the above-mentioned congress.
Lastly, I would like to thank all the Council members for their friendship and support and all the FEPTO members for the trust and appreciation they have shown to me in the role of the President.
b. Vice-president report: Krzysztof Ciepliński
Elaboration of the minutes from the Council meeting in Pravetz (in place of the absent secretary of FEPTO). Visit in Ohrid, Republic of North Macedonia in order to support Mirjana Jovanovska Stojanovska in the process of looking for a venue for the FEPTO Conference and AM 2020
Involvement in the process of re-establishing the FEPTO Awards Committee and ongoing exchange with their members: Jutta Fürst, Arsa Kayir and Stefan Flegelskamp.
Participation in a Skype meeting regarding the organization of the FEPTO Conference in Tallinn (with the FEPTO board members and Reijo Kauppila), September, 2018.
Participation at the Council meeting in Dave, November 2018, mostly dedicated to the organization of the 27th FEPTO Annual Meeting and FEPTO Conference in Tallinn.
Co-authorship of the editorial and report from the PD Theory and Interconnection Pravetz small group published in the FN 18.2 as well as editorial of FN 18.2 and FN 19.1 (co-author Nikos Takis).
Involvement in announcements and organization of the poster’s session at the Tallinn AM (thanks for cooperation to Judith Teszáry, Kerstin Jurdell and Reijo Kauppila).
Support to the further development of AM small group focused on the Psychodrama theory and interconnections to scientific discoveries and other disciplines in cooperation with Paola de Leonardis, Marco Greco, Roger Schaller and Nikos Takis – Skype and email exchanges, announcements in the FN; participation at the Padova RC Meeting.
Participation at the Board and Council meeting in Padova, March 2019.
Organization and submission of the FEPTO symposium entitled Current Research on Psychodrama Applications at the 2nd IAGP International Research Congress, 14th-17th June 2019 in Thessaloniki.
Submission of a workshop proposal focused on PD research, including sharing information about the actual FEPTO RC activity for the forthcoming PAFE Conference in Kraków, September 2019.
c. Secretary and Internal Affairs report: Ana Cruz
As Secretary, my main task was to minute the council and the executive meetings, to answer effectively and quickly to all questions and requests from our members by email and to collaborate with Ina Ilieva in newsletter editing. In the task of Secretary, I must address a special thanks to Horatiu Nil Albini for always being so efficient and supportive.
As part of the executive council, I participated in the Padova meeting where we worked on the preparation of the AM and Conference in Tallinn and planned the GA Agenda.
In Padova, as part of the editorial board of the International Journal of Psychodrama and Action Methods, I participated in the board meeting, together with Hannes Krall and Kate Kirk, and we planned the next steps. A call for papers was published in the Newsletter to which, personally, I hope all psychodramatist researchers respond enthusiastically helping us to move forward in accrediting Psychodrama.
I want to express my gratitude to all my colleagues in the council, for their commitment to FEPTO and for their fellowship in this task.
d. Treasurer report Chantal Nève-Hanquet
Only two institutes have not paid 2018, one was because of Louis Nicolas death and the other one was a Spanish Institute SPTG. We have a balance between gains and losses (for a better resolution see the FEPTO balance on the Tallinn minutes, page 4).
- Auditor`s report / Approval of the revised accountancy
Jacomien Ilbrink de Visser and Irina Stefanescu approved the revised accountancy.
- Discharge of the Council
The executive council was discharged.
- Report of the chairs of the committees
- Training Committee report: Reijo Kauppila
To define the competencies of psychodrama trainee/practitioner working in therapy or psychotherapy – and to define specific competencies according to EAP. Started March 2016, 80% is done; continues until December 2019.
To define the competencies of psychodrama trainee/practitioner working in other fields of application: education, organisations, social work, etc. Started March 2016, 90% is done; continues till Autumn 2019.
To define competencies of psychodrama trainer. Started March 2018, work continues.
- Membership Committee and Annual Meeting Committee report: Kerstin Jurdell
There is one applicant for a membership from SPA Moreno, Belgrade, /Serbian Psychodrama Association Moreno/ where I have been reading their application and helped them as guests in the AM 2018. There has not been any application for being a guest this year. I have been in dialogue with two institutes in the beginning of the procedure of how to be qualified as member of FEPTO. I have read the voices from the AM in Pravetz and presented them with help from Nikos in the newsletter.
The Annual meeting has been prepared by the LOC from Finland and Estonia. We have had one Skype meeting.
I have also had a Skype meeting with the board when the RCM meeting took place in Padova, February 2019.
- Ethics & International Affairs Committee report: Judith Teszáry
Members of the Committee: Arsaluys Kayir (Turkey), Luciano Moura (Portugal), Peter John Schouten (The Netherlands), Lillian Crevo (Norway), Dana Dragoteanu (Romania), Anzhela Hristoforova (Bulgaria), Leandra Perrotta, Maurizio Gasseau (Italy).
I have been in correspondence with the members of the Committee and requested to send in their code of ethics concerning the functioning of their training institutes and the code of conduct.
There institutes sent in their codes:
- Development & Network Committee report: Fred Dorn
I had three topics I had to deal with: 1. Registration of application for scholarships to attend the FEPTO conference and/or the Annual Meeting; 2. Establishing the FEPTO – Platform; 2. Steering of the Process of Constitution Changing.
- One of the tasks of the Chair of Development is the organisation of scholarships, as they are regulated in the Scholarship Attribution Guidelines of FEPTO. They will have to be revised, since the wording “one scholarship per person is available for participants from countries such as Bulgaria, Croatia…..” is not clear enough. Concerning the payment of grants the Council has decided, that it is up to the LOC in charge to fix the amount of the Early Bird – Registration fee and the currency in which it has to be paid. According to that the grant will be settled. There have still been questions about the organization, responsibility, terms of application and payment of the granted scholarships. So we shall have to discuss the experiences and to overwork the guidelines according to our experience and requirements.
- The main task for me has been the establishing of the FEPTO-Platform, to make it a useful, practicable and necessary tool for our communication – in between the Council and as well in our community. I must admit that by now it has been accepted rather hesitantly. Anyway, the way it works it works, so I think it will take its time to be accepted and to become an obviously necessary instrument of communication in times of digitization on European scale.
- A first try I have made in steering the process of Constitution Changing which worked rather successfully. In several meetings Frank Sielecki and I overworked the still existing constitution, prepared a new draft and put it on our platform. We invited our working group – consisting of Nikos, Judith and Chantal – to make their comments and put the newly overworked draft as well on our platform. The community was invited to look at it and to make their comments and proposals by their own. As expected, there came nothing, but anyway, I wrote a circular to all members of our community – as far as I have their addresses – and got some encouraging answers. So I am not afraid that we will have enough members in our Small Group concerned with the topic Constitution Changing and that that will be a good opportunity to demonstrate how it is possible to work efficiently with the platform. The access to our platform and to the topic Constitution Changing you find here: https://fepto-networking.eu, user name, password: Documents in Progress.
- Research Committee report: Johannes Krall
The main focus of our RC work was on the following activities:
(1) FEPTO RC Meeting
(2) Journal on Psychodrama and Action Methods:
- Cfp for an edition on Pd research (2020)
- International editions in the Journal of psychodrama and sociometry (ZPS) (2021-)
(3) The RC aims to…
- be a platform for exchange in pd-research
- initiate and conduct pd-research
- train the pd-trainers (& ourselves) in research
- integrate research in pd-training
- link pd research with research in related fields, e.g. counselling, psychotherapy, psychology, education
- support publishing of pd research
- present pd research at international conferences
RC Meeting in Leipzig: Research for a magic profession? Scientific reasoning in psychodrama training and practice. In Leipzig, we were more than thirty people present with some more guests on Friday during the presentation of the keynote speakers. We welcomed Prof. Dr. Bernhard Strauss (Universitätsklinikum Jena), who talked about “Current trends in (group) psychotherapy research” and we discussed questions and challenges we are facing in psychodrama research. Furthermore, our psychodrama colleague Dr. Reinhard T. Krüger from the Moreno-Institute Edenkoben/ Überlingen demonstrated and discussed the topic “Monodrama”. In addition, Prof. Dr. Konrad Schnabel from the International Psychoanalytic University Berlin has presented a pilot study about “Psychodrama and wise interventions”. Apart from the keynote speakers, we heard about ongoing research projects from our psychodrama colleagues. I want to express my thanks to the LOC – Katja Kolmorgen, Anett Richter-Nowak and Uwe Novak from the Surplus psychodrama training Institute in Leipzig for their excellent work in hosting our meeting.
RC Meeting and Conference in Padova “From Resilience to Wellbeing – Promoting Health through Psychodrama and Action Methods” was co-organized by the University of Padova and the FEPTO Research committee. In total, more than one hundred people participated in the conference, 46 FEPTO colleagues from 17 European and Mediterranean countries. Key note speakers came from the US, Israel, Greece and Italy. We are now finishing the report for the Padova meeting. The report will be sent out and uploaded on the website.
Many thanks for the invitation and the hard work to organize this conference go to Prof. Ines Testoni and Francesca Alemanno from the interdisciplinary Department of Philosophies, Sociology, Education and Applied Psychology (FISPPA) of the University of Padova.
The next RC Meeting will take place at the Sigmund Freud University (SFU) in Vienna. “Beyond Numbers and Words. Measuring and understanding Psychodrama”. LOC will consist of Susanne Schulze and Babsi Geml. A call for contributions and an invitation was sent to our colleagues and announced in the FEPTO Newsletter. Practitioners, trainers and trainees in psychodrama are invited to take part.
After Vienna our next RC meeting will take place in Istanbul from 5-8 of March 2020.
It is very encouraging to see that every year more researchers and practitioners in psychodrama are getting involved in research activities and by that contributing to a common research culture in our professional field. We will continue to promote research encounters and to provide support for research in psychodrama.
IAGP Research conference in Thessaloniki: two panels will be held by participants of the FEPTO RC.
International PD Journal (supplements of ZPS): One Journal edition on psychodrama research is planned for 2020. A call for papers was sent out and published in the Newsletter. A further issue of the Journal is planned for 2021 on psychodrama practice, training and research.
- Communication Committee report: Katherina Ilieva
FEPTO.NEWS / the newsletter of FEPTO
- 6 editions of the FEPTO Newsletter
- informative, interactive, functional
- new interactive layout – navigation panel
FEPTO Web site
- Regular update
- FEPTO Directory
- New regulation
- Training Committee report: Reijo Kauppila
- Presentation of the Budget 2019
(for a better resolution see the budget in the Tallinn minutes, page 9.)
- Council related proposals, discussion and voting:
- Council members shall be elected for a three (3) years´ term.
- Decrease the number of the Council members from ten (10) to eight (8) persons: voting for 7 members in the council: 11 yes; voting for 8 members in the council: 69 yes
- Remuneration of part of the AM registration fees for the council members: President and vice-president will continue receiving 600 each per year and It will be added up to 300 euros for each council member for covering AM expenses (excluding president and vice-president). Voting: yes 75; abstention 3; No 0
Discussion and Approval of the Budget 2019: Voting: yes 81, no 0, abstention 3
Discussion about how to finance allowance for council members, in order not to pay their AM contribution, as they have to be there and are working very hard for FEPTO. Creative proposal by Agnes Dudler members who come to the AM pay €100 less than members who don’t come to the AM meeting, as we’re all working for FEPTO and we miss our income.
Proposal Peter Haworth: request not to vote about financial issues before result votes that impede on the budget are in.
- Update on the constitution changing by Fred Dorn
Necessity of Constitution Changing and Actualization: The foundation of FEPTO leads back to the year of 1992 – then named first ISCOPE later on ESCOPE (European Study and Co-ordination of Psychodrama-Education) and, finally in 1996, FEPTO in Belgium as an international non-profit organization according to Belgian law. The then agreed and adopted Constitution concedes that “a number of terms contained in it may, in the future, require more precise definition” (Preamble). Now, more than 25 years later, considering the history and changing in European society since then and the growth of FEPTO as well (about 60 member-institutions out of 27 countries) it is really necessary not only to find “more precise definition” of terms, but also to redefine and to define the global aims, purpose and concrete goals. Furthermore, the usability and practicability of the constitution have to be reconsidered and adapted to the actual needs, thus to enable our organization to be an active and respected partner on European stage contributing to the welfare of European society by the development of Psychodrama in training, research and practice
- Global aims
The preamble of a constitution has to render account of the global aims to which the organization with all its members and activities is committed to. It thus describes the political and social position of the organization, the way it wants to participate in political and social life and to contribute to the well-being and well functioning of society. The suggested new wording of the Preamble is a try to express this need.
Concerning the purposes the geographical and hence the political sphere and limitations of acting have to be clearly defined – what we tried. Maybe more stress should be laid on the development of psychodrama-practice.
- Usability and Practicability
There is a difference between usability and practicability. Usability means how to make use of the constitution as a tool, thus to define:
- The location of the association
- The relationship between members and institutional bodies (GA, Council)
- Decision Making in accordance with democratic rules
- The term of office of the Council
- Number of Council members and their responsibilities
- Regulation of voting procedures
- Responsibility for the organization in total.
According to this, the following topics have to be dealt with and decided in the constitution, to make it slim and supple, easily to be handled:
- Art. 3 Membership: The membership issue is a very sensitive question that should be changed in accordance to actual needs and the development of the organization. Hence we propose to regulate the items of Art. 3.1 – 4 in the by-laws.
- Art. 5 Council: The term and the number of Council members are crucial for the well functioning of the Council. There are different opinions how long the term of the Council should last and of how many members the Council should at least consist. The proposed regulation allows flexibility but of course it has to be discussed and decided.
- Art. 9 Voting: This article touches the sensitive difference between individual members (especially founding members) and institutional members. A clear regulation will have to be found in the by-laws as we suggest.
- Art. 11 Subscriptions: Additionally to the regulation foreseen by the Constitution we suggest, that the annual fee’s arrangement should be fixed in the by-laws.
On the other hand practicability concerns all issues that should not be regulated in the Constitution, but in by-laws, thus to enable the GA as well as the Council to adapt their activities to actual needs to be decided upon easily by the GA or the Council without touching and changing the Constitution – which in such cases requires a qualified majority of 2/3 of its members (Art. 10). To these practical issues belong:
- Financial affairs: fixing and changing of membership fees, budgeting, regulation of scholarships etc.
- Rules of procedure for the Council and the GA
- Defining and adapting the conditions of institutional and personal membership within FEPTO
- The organization and developing of networking – enjoying the possibilities digitization offers
- The conditions of application for financial support of projects in the name of or with the support of FEPTO, clearly defined and budgeted by the responsible organizers.
Obviously and consequently, we put many regulations to be met into the by-laws: Art. 3, 5,7,9,11.
Hence we shall have to work in two steps:
- Work on the constitution
The changing and the adaption of the constitution to actual needs has to be a democratic process initiated by the Council at the GA, filled with life by the members and put into effect by the GA after a procedure of discussion and acceptance. The organization of this procedure will be the task of the new council to be elected at Tallinn. Possibly this – and maybe as well the work on the by-laws – may require the support and aid of lawyers.
- Work on the by-laws
As well by-laws will have to be worked out. Maybe it is too much a challenge to organize this procedure parallel, but anyway, it has to be thought of and kept in mind.
- Update on the FEPTO International Journal by Johannes Krall
Journal of Psychodrama and Action Methods editorial board is composed by Kate Kirk, Ana Cruz, Christian Stadler, Zoltan Figusch, Milena Mutafchieva and Hannes Krall. We will publish a special edition on research in psychodrama and action methods from an international and FEPTO perspective. These editions will be connected to the Journal for Psychodrama and Sociometry (ZPS) which is published by Springer.The focus is on empirical research in psychodrama.
We want to include:
- quantitative and
- mixed methods designs and research projects.
The psychodrama research Journal will comprise topics like
- Research in education, counselling and psychotherapy…
- Psychodrama individual & group work with adults
- Psychodrama with children and young people
- Psychodrama in Social Work and Education
- Research on Training and Supervision
The Journal is peer reviewed and will assure high quality of publishing and recognition in the scientific and professional community. Deadline for submissions of articles: 30th of June 2019.
Springer offers to publish up to three special editions on psychodrama and action methods from an international and FEPTO perspective. The aim is to include a broad range of psychodrama, sociodrama, sociometry and action methods in education with children and young people, adult learning and training, supervision, psychological counselling and psychotherapy, social work, organisational learning and counselling, conflict management, peace education and community work.
We are delighted to invite you to submit an abstract for consideration for the first Special edition on Psychodrama theory, practice, training and research.
These editions will be connected to the Journal for Psychodrama and Sociometry (ZPS) which is published by Springer.
The Journal is peer reviewed and will assure high quality of publishing and recognition in the scientific and professional community. Deadline for submissions of abstracts: 1st of October 2019
(1) ZPS special edition on psychodrama research from an international and FEPTO perspective
Deadline for submissions of articles: 30th of June 2019
(2) ZPS special edition on psychodrama theory, practice, training, research… from an international and FEPTO perspective.
Deadline for submissions of abstracts: 1st of Oct. 2019. Submissions and information: firstname.lastname@example.org
- Update on Erasmus+ Projects by Judith Teszáry and Reijo Kauppila
a. Sociodrama Performers 2 (Judith Teszáry)
- We have started this EU project to developing sociodrama in different fields.
- Partner organisations in the project are: FEPTO; The Hungarian Psychodrama Association (MPE), the coordinator of the project; The Swedish Association of Psychodramatists (SPA); The Portuguese Society of Psychodrama (SPP); Birmingham Institute for Psychodrama (BIP); NOS Portuguese social organisation; Hungarian Detention home (Youth prison) (EMMI).
- Members of the FEPTO staff: Judith Teszáry coordinator
- Nikolaos Takis, Chantal Neve-Hanquet, Melinda Ashley Meyer, Irina Stefanescu.
- The aim of the project is to create a sociodrama curriculum for the Hungarian PD Association; contribute to the creation of a European Sociodrama training standard; teach sociodrama for youth workers; write a field specific textbook for youth workers; edit an international book in sociodrama; disseminate the method in psychodrama training institutes/organisations, conferences, workshops.
- FEPTO as member organisation has been represented in first two events by Judith Teszáry and Jana Damjanov so far and will continue to do so in each events involving different staff members. Irina Stefanescu will participate at the meeting (M2) in Birmingham.
- In this project there are Meetings (M) for the coordinators of the partner organisations and Trainings © for all participants.
- 8 working groups dealing with different tasks involved in the project:
- wg1– Project management (Hungarian staff),
- wg2 – International meetings coordination;
- wg3 – Dissemination group, creation of homepage, Facebook sight, logo;
- wg4 – European standard (FEPTO staff is active in this working group;
- wg5 – Institution specific issues,
- wg6 – Detention home specifics;
- wg7– Method and curriculum;
- wg8 – International textbook. FEPTO staff is active in creation of this textbook.
- After each training occasion there is an evaluation & reflection meeting to analyse the benefit of the 5 days trainings, what can be used in a sociodrama curriculum and in the work of a standardisation of the method. An editorial board has been built to prepare the International Sociodrama book.
- The first training event was carried out by the British team led by Di Adderley (BIP). The method they use is based in most parts on the Australian New-Zealand model. Role exploration, role taking, role playing and role training. The difference between sociodrama-psychodrama and action methods was discussed. Exploration of leadership in each role one take in a play.
- The next training days (C2) will be in Portugal, where the Portuguese Psychodrama Association will teach their way of doing and teaching sociodrama.
- The third training event (C3) is a cooperation between FEPTO trainers and the Swedish trainers in Stockholm presenting their way of doing sociodrama concerning marginalised youth, refugees, new comers’ integration in Sweden.
- After the training events we take on the writing of the above mentioned material: international textbook, field specific use of sdr, method and curriculum, proposal for standardisation, so called intellectual output of the project.
- At the AM there will be a small group work on the topic Sociodrama to broader the area of Moreno’s methods. I hope many of you who are using sociodrama will come and contribute with your experience to the discussion.
b. EBTS-Project. Trauma stabilisation in asylum seeking, refugee and immigrant families in Bulgaria, Germany and Finland (Reijo Kauppila). Target groups in three countries (Bulgaria, Germany, Finland):
- Professionals who work with asylum seeking, refugee and immigrant families (EBTS-Training)
- Families (EBTS-Programme)
- EBTS-Training: 38 EBTS-leaders
- EBTS-Programme: about 15 groups
- EBTS-Manual: for EBTS-leaders
- Effectiveness research: Programme and Training
- Impact evaluation of change of children and parents
- Significant change in pre- and post-tests
- Control group: data will be collected
- PGL and HAL
- More than 50& of self-reported important events for learning are connected to our methodology based on psychodrama, sociodrama and sociometry.
- Approval of new memberships on the recommendation of the Council
Applying institute:Serbian Psychodrama Association Moreno – SPA Moreno
Votes: Yes 76; No 4; Abstention 4 – Accepted.
- Welcoming new members
The FEPTO Community welcomes the new member: Congratulations!
- Presentation of candidates to the new council
Chantal Neve Hanquet, Krzysztof Ciepliński, Nikolaos Takis, Judith Teszáry, Johannes Krall, Fred Dorn, Katherina (Ina) Ilieva, Kerstin Jurdell, Georgios Chaniotis and Mirjana (Mimi) Jovanovska Stojanovska are candidates for the new council. Everybody had time to present themselves with their capacities, vision and goals for FEPTO.
- Voting, procedure and results
77 votes: Nikolaos Takis
73 votes: Chantal Nève-Hanquet
69 votes: Johannes (Hannes) Krall
65 votes: Judith Teszáry
64 votes: Katerina (Ina) Ilieva
59 votes: Krzysztof Ciepliński
59 votes: Mirjana (Mimi) Jovanovska Stojanovska
58 votes: Georgios Chaniotis
56 votes: Fred Dorn
30 votes: Kerstin Jurdell
Total votes 85, 1 not valid
- FEPTO AM and Conference 2020 and 2021
12th-14th June, 2020 for the FEPTO Conference and 14th-18th June, 2020 for the Annual Meeting; Ohrid, Republic of North Macedonia; organised by Amigdala.
For 2021 Polish Institute of Psychodrama Association (PIP) will organize the events in Poland.
- Proposal for FEPTO AM and Conference 2022
A proposal for Switzerland was made, for future confirmation
- Any other business
New procedure for scholarships in FEPTO Conference and AM. Size of scholarship stays the same
- For staff or students of members
- Full scholarship: 2/3 of the early bird price
- Half scholarship: 1/3 of the early bird price
- Countries stay the same
- Conference: any number from one member
- AM: one representative of one member
The total amount of scholarships:
- Now: Max 10% of the registration fees
- New: The Council decides the max amount EUR in November based on the budget
Procedure. Now we have:
- Application form,
- Tentative decision by the development chair,
- information to the LOC,
- LOC informs when there is enough money,
- the applicant send copies of registration and flight ticket,
- LOC confirms the scholarship,
- special arrangement for paying registration fee.
- In registration form, the applicant chooses ”I would like to have a scholarship.”
- The LOC and applicant will immediately know if there is more scholarships available – First come, first served
- The invoice of registration fee is only for the self financing part of the fee
- If the invoice is not paid by due date, someone else will get the scholarship.
- Closure of the General Assembly
Download > Minutes with the original layout